Sept. 18, 2026
Is Poor Health Killing Your Leadership?
What does your health have to do with your leadership?
Bobby Davis sits down with author, speaker, and pastor Michael Muccio to explore how physical discipline, active listening, public speaking, and storytelling can make you a stronger, more credible leader.
Michael also shares how Zig Ziglar transformed his life, why leaders must learn to “seek first to understand,” and the powerful lesson behind his book, Evil’s First Breath.
Watch now for practical insights on leading with greater energy, clarity, discipline, and purpose.
#Leadership #PersonalDevelopment #PublicSpeaking #Discipline #HealthAndLeadership
Bobby Davis speaks with author, speaker, and pastor Michael Muccio about the connection between health, discipline, leadership, and effective communication.
Muccio shares how Zig Ziglar shaped his life, how health became a leadership priority, and how his recent novel, Evil's First Breath, uses story to explore deep spiritual and leadership principles.
The conversation is especially useful for leaders, pastors, speakers, and anyone trying to turn experience into a message that actually sticks. Key topics
- In this episode, Michael Muccio shares how reading Zig Ziglar's See You at the Top changed the direction of his life and led to a mentorship that shaped both his career and faith.
- Muccio explains why health is not optional for leaders, arguing that physical discipline affects alertness, creativity, credibility, and the ability to serve others well.
- Bobby and Muccio discuss how visible habits, especially fitness and self-discipline, influence how people perceive leadership character.
- Muccio breaks down his view of public speaking as something rooted in conviction, emotional connection, and the ability to tell a story instead of only delivering facts.
- He shares the sales and seminar experience that helped him realize he was truly a speaker, especially learning to get to the point quickly and close effectively.
- The conversation turns to pastoral leadership, where Muccio emphasizes the importance of listening first, understanding the audience, and adapting to the needs of different groups.
- Muccio describes one of his biggest leadership challenges as a pastor: learning how to leave other people's problems at work and show up fully for his wife and children at home.
- He introduces Evil's First Breath, a novel about the origin of evil and the fall of Lucifer, and explains why he chose fiction to communicate spiritual truth more memorably.
- Muccio reflects on writing as a process of obedience, saying he often felt the story was being written through him rather than by him.
- Bobby and Muccio close by encouraging writers and speakers to start small, keep showing up, and use stories to make ideas easier to remember.
🔗 CONNECT WITH BOBBY DAVIS AND THE WELL2LEAD PODCAST
- Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Well2Lead
-Website: https://well2lead.com
- Book: https://authorbobbydavis.com/- Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast-Youtube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ1ax08vksM8r5_WXa3Y-EfyZ8TYP4pMv&si=LJKZg20W3oAb5iVd
How to Contact Michael:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-j-muccio-8a55a219/
https://michaeljmuccio.com/
0:00
55% of communication is non verbal, 37 percent is voice tone.
You're and then you can, you can, you can hit people with fact, fact, fact.
You know, as a pastor, Bible, scripture, Bible scripture, you can, you can go to the head with a point to the point where they're they're, they're going out of there.
0:19
They're you fill them with a lot of information.
But did you connect with them emotionally?
Did you go to the heart with a story?
Welcome to the Well to Lead podcast where we explore the dynamic relationship between personal Wellness and effective leadership.
0:50
Michael, welcome to the Well to Lead podcast this morning.
How you doing today, Sir?
I'm doing terrific, Bobby.
It's great to be here.
I've been looking forward to this.
Same here man.
Same here.
You and I have a lot in common.
1:05
I know you did a lot of work with Zig Ziglar and he is one of my favorites.
I have read and studied and probably quoted a lot of things that that he is, you know, shared and been able to impact the world with man.
1:21
So can't wait to hear more about it.
But before we get started, Michael, how about you maybe take a minute or so and tell us a little bit more about yourself and we'll get going from there.
Well, terrific.
Well, I'm a I'm an author and a speaker right now and, and travel and just different places that the churches, businesses who are real happy I got, I got started with Zig years ago.
1:47
I was climbing the corporate ladder in with a company owned by Prudential Life Insurance in the hospitality industry and actually managing A nightclub.
And I read Zig's book, See You at the top, Bobby.
And when I read it, it just revolutionized my life.
2:03
I was like, I was searching.
I, I, I the more wine, women and song I was making climbing the corporate ladder, the less happy I was.
And I'm if this is all life has to offer, it's going to be a miserable life.
Anyway, I met Zig.
He saw I was a young man and that was teachable and ripe and ready to change.
2:21
He took me under his wing, ended up leaving that business and then went to to work with him.
So that's where I got my starting point.
And then through him, just being mentored by him, I would go to the small companies that couldn't afford Zig, but they could afford Michael.
So and he would go to, he'd go to the big clients, I'd go to the ones with 100 or 200 employees, he'd go to the little ones.
2:42
But either way, we were both focusing on teaching people how to be the best version of themselves that they could be.
That's good stuff.
You know, some interesting that and maybe you can share this and tell us more about this.
You said that you were you were led to the Lord by by Zig Ziglar.
3:03
Is that right?
Absolutely yes.
Wow, that was that was the thing that happened first is and I was searching for what my purpose was.
I was short searching for what life was all about.
Went in a bookstore and I bought 2 book.
I bought, I bought a Bible and I bought Zig's book.
3:18
See you at the top.
Yeah, I liked, I liked what he was talking about because he talked about God like you knew him personally and I I did not have that any kind of a relationship like that with God.
So that got and I just wanted what he had.
So the rest was wow.
3:36
What would you say?
And I know that you have spent some time obviously as a pastor, so you have a pretty diverse and well-rounded background.
You'd now published author.
What would you say?
3:52
And as far as the things along the way, are the people along the way that have impacted you perhaps thus far that you think have made a great impact on your life and what you're doing today?
Well, after Zig Zig Zig would talk about success in seven areas of life.
4:14
And he, he in his goal setting segment, he talked about his effort to lose a lot of weight and, and exercising.
He'd run, he'd run on a couple of mailboxes and then then a block in a mailbox.
And it's like it was, it was fun to listen to his journey, but he was a very, very passionate about eating healthy.
4:35
And, and so I got that from, I got that connection from him.
And then doctor Joel Robbins impacted me.
He was a nature path and, and I had an athletic injury and so that got me connected into understanding the, the, the role of eating healthy.
4:55
And he also talked about psychosomatic illnesses.
So it's been a journey and it and as a pastor, I would, I would pray for people and and then they would, they would be back.
The two weeks later was something else.
And I started realizing, OK, I think, I think some lifestyle changes are in order for my congregation as well.
5:15
So I started having speakers come in that were that would talk about preventative care and that made a big impact.
So I, I think that that that the, you're the concept of your podcast is so is so outstanding because we don't have enough where leaders are considering the importance of being healthy.
5:39
And we're going to be better leaders.
We're going to be better in every area of our lives if we've got if we've got our health.
Yeah, Yeah.
Now that's it.
That's a great point and and thanks for sharing that.
I mean, it, it, you know, you, you know, the folks that you had an opportunity to kind of be in contact with in the lessons that you've learned obviously over the years.
6:05
For you to say that part shows tremendous value when it comes to us realizing the importance of health because it's, it's, it's rather difficult to lead when you are in poor health.
6:21
And we focus a lot on that and understanding that health is sort of the foundation of where leaders gain their their strength and guidance to go out and do what it is that they feel that they're called to do and to be effective.
6:37
And with that being said, Michael, was there any specific thing that you saw from that, you know, from the focus point on, on health that you saw made an immediate impact in your life as far as a leader is concerned, as far as your work, your career and the things that you were doing at the time?
6:58
Sure.
When you're standing up in front of people week in and week out, Yeah.
You know, I, when I first got involved and started in in pastoral work, I would go to these pastors conferences and I would see so many pastors that were overweight.
Yeah, I remember talking to the Lord.
7:15
I'd say, Lord, I don't want to be, I don't want to be an old fat preacher.
And so please, Lord, help me, help me that.
And and and so it was the discipline.
Zig, Zig.
When I would pick him up, he would he would come and speak a lot of functions for me for for free because I had ministry involved.
7:35
It was pretty fascinating.
And but I would pick him up and he always liked to run.
I have a run before he was speaking, he talked about how that would release the endorphins, you know, and the creativity would be there.
And so I'd pick him up.
I remember one of the times running with him and we we had a nice visit jogging together.
7:54
But so I picked up on that over the years and and no matter so many times, I don't know about you, but I don't feel like going to the gym.
I don't feel like lifting weights.
I don't want, you know, I'd rather I'm in the middle of writing something and lo and behold, I go and I come back and the creative juices are are flowing and, and as a leader, when I'm standing up in front of people, I want to be an example.
8:20
Right.
And so if I'm fit and I'm trimmed, that's just another area of life that that they can see.
Well, you know, pastor believes in this in this stuff enough to go after it.
And and you ask some of the mentors and that a lot of those speakers that I would have in I got to a place then when I would read a certain amount of books on that subject each each year, simply because I'd say I'd ask them, what do you recommend would be good follow up for me as a layperson, you know, you, you know, doctor so and so a doctor this and that.
8:54
And so that was that was fun.
But I think, I think that discipline, that daily discipline and then eating healthy, eating raw foods, live foods, you know, so.
No, that, that's good stuff, man.
And, and you're right.
I, I mean, I like the point that you bought up because I'm thinking, I was thinking the same thing, Michael, before you said it like because, because you, you know, being a pastor, I've seen pastors that, you know, can barely make it to the pulpit because they're struggling with their weight.
9:25
And it's kind of hard to be an example because that's the first thing that people see when they come into the church is they see the pastor and it's like, OK, all right, you know, And the things that that are important, I think when it comes to sharing the message, it's tied into some areas of life is visible to people.
9:49
For example, whether you're carrying a lot of weight, you know, and you got this big stomach and, and you said that you said the one word that I think is so important and that's discipline.
And you can show discipline, obviously, in the habits that you have when it comes to maintaining your weight and living a healthy lifestyle.
10:11
But often that discipline is, is also transferable.
It's transferable when it comes to reading the word exactly, you know, and and taking time to pray.
All of those things often times require discipline.
10:27
So it's more than just looking at the individual, but it's looking at the principles that they operate.
By yes.
That can help you in so many ways because if you see a fit pastor up there, it's like, OK, this guy is disciplined.
10:45
He's probably got some resilience, you know, all characteristics and principles that you could pick up that could help you in other areas of, of of your life.
That's kind of what I was thinking when you mentioned that.
You're, you're right on.
You're in, you're in.
We're flowing together here, Bobby, that's for sure.
11:03
Yeah, the the when, when you said you work with Zig and he lost weight, how much weight did he lose?
Was he?
You know, because I read something about that, but it's been a while back.
I believe it was £35, 35 lbs and he and he lost it over an 8 month period of time primarily primarily jogging.
11:25
I don't know he did, he did push ups, he did some calisthenics.
I don't know that he got to the gym lifting weights with his, with his speaking schedule, but he would he would just find find ways to get that work out in.
And you know, a lot of people that do travel, they they make excuses that they can't exercise.
11:44
But that's what I was.
That was the point I was making is that he put that he carved that out.
He his secretary when I talked, he said, well, Zig, Zig will want to exercise before the speaking.
So can you arrange that?
Oh, absolutely I can.
And so this was a part of his, of his life that that took place all the time.
12:04
And oh boy, the alertness that you're talking about, like and study.
I mean, I'm a lot more alert.
I can you you and I are talking before we're both early risers.
I'm up and, and I'm, I'm able to stay awake because I've got the, I've got the, the, the, the health and the fitness.
12:22
And it's interesting what happens when we get away from exercise for a a week.
Maybe we're, we're going through some kind of, yeah, not feeling so well or or scheduled as such that we're not.
And what a difference, what a difference that that makes.
12:38
You're right, you're right.
And, and, and I'm glad you mentioned that too, Michael, because sometime what happens, you don't realize the value of trying to live a, a, a healthy lifestyle until maybe you, you know, in a situation, are you on vacation or something changing your schedule when you can't stick to your routine of say, working out, for example.
13:08
And I've had that to happen to me.
And I noticed it like when during the winter time when we had some really bad weather and the gym was closed for a couple of days and I had to kind of modify my workout.
13:26
I still worked out, I worked out at home, but I had to modify it.
But I noticed how I, I know that I noticed the difference and how I felt because I couldn't get the full workout that I normally would get.
And so that noticeable difference can obviously impact you in other areas too, like you kind of start dragging a little bit to work.
13:50
Maybe your work day doesn't start off there, you know, as as crisp and you know, with clarity as you'd normally would because you exercise.
It just has so many ways, man.
There's so many things that it can impact and you'd notice it when there's an absence in your in your schedule.
14:15
So it's interesting that you know that you bought that up.
But I was also thinking about this.
When you travel as a speaker, at what point in your life did you realize, you know, because you spoke to large audiences, small audiences, various types of people.
14:39
You, you, you work with Jake, you guys were out doing things together.
When did you know that you were speaker?
Well, I tell you, I wasn't when I met him.
When I left corporate America and the nightclub business, although I was making a lot of money and getting a lot of attention, recognition, I wasn't a public speaker.
15:00
So when I took this business, it was a business class that Zig invited me to.
It was expensive, but money was no object at that time.
I was making plenty of money as a young man, but I wanted, I wanted to, I wanted to speak like I, I, that was, I wanted that.
15:16
And so part of the class was getting up and expressing yourself.
That's, that's part of what, what we did is get people up and expressing themselves.
So then when I started going to work, if the first thing I did with him as I would go and I would market his seminar.
15:32
So I would get, I would go and I, I had like 10 minutes to go to a, maybe a real estate office.
They'd give me a portion of their sales meeting.
So I had to persuade them to come to our seminar to close the sale and pick up the check in 10 minutes time because that's what they were giving me.
15:51
So you learn how and I would go home at night and I would, I would carve it.
I would change this, you know, because you, you want to go to the head with a point into the heart with a story, you know, and that's, that has been something that's been dear to me over the years.
So you, you, you, you learn how to be succinct.
16:08
You're gonna get, get, get to your point and get to the point quick.
And then don't be afraid to ask for the order.
You know that's right.
So.
That's when I, when I start, I, I realized I was a speaker when I started closing sales from up the front of the room.
Then I realized, OK, this stuff is working.
16:27
You know, there you go.
Because up to then I didn't know whether whether I was a like Zigs as a professional visitor or whether I was actually a speaker that could have a vision and a goal and accomplish it.
Wow, that's that's cool man.
So what was the largest audience you ever spoke to?
16:50
Boy, I did.
I have not spoken to one of those 10,000 groups but I think probably probably 5000 I would say would be the biggest 1 so.
OK, and, and I, and I asked that for, for, for this reason, because I wanted to get your, your, your thought process on and maybe adding advice or perhaps giving advice to, you know, aspiring folks who may want to get more into the arena of speaking and, and why speaking or learning how to speak publicly.
17:34
It's so important to, you know, perhaps even advancing your career or just giving you some added tools that can help you be more successful.
You started with small, a small group, and then you obviously moved up the chain to to larger groups.
17:52
What advice would you give to folks who struggle with public speaking and how can they overcome it?
First thing is that what you're talking about need to be something you deeply believe in.
It's not just a because if you if you believe in it, you're going to be properly animated.
18:14
You know, 55% of communication is non verbal, 37 percent is voice tone.
You're and then you can, you can, you can hit people with fact, fact, fact.
You know, as a pastor, Bible scripture, Bible scripture, you can, you can go to the head with a point to the point where they're they're, they're going out of there.
18:33
They're you fill them with a lot of information.
But did you connect with them emotionally?
Did you go to the heart with a story?
And my, my latest book, the whole book is about, it's a, it's a biblical truth, but yet it's in the form of a novel of a story.
18:53
And so the whole book is about going to the heart with a point so people can step into that book.
That's the way you want to be as a speaker.
You want to, you want people to be able to step in and you and fire up their imagination to see themselves in what you're talking about.
19:09
Or give an illustration analogy that that enables them to, to, to get their feelings involved, not just their logic, because your feeling pain is, is a lot larger than your thinking brain.
So you want to, you want to connect those dots and I so that's a really important to talk about something you believe in and then learn how to, to, to go to both the logic and the emotion.
19:38
And you know, Aristotle, we get all of that from Aristotle and he has this, his three modes of of communication.
But he but it, you know, it's logic and then emotion and then the person the because you, you and me are the we are the message.
19:55
So what we, what we live.
And I, I was another part of I, I enjoyed your, your, your podcast.
You know, well to lead.
Are you know, are you well emotionally?
Are you because you can be spiritually?
Intact, but not well emotionally.
20:12
So I got to be careful because you could get a pastor started.
He end up preaching A sermon to you.
So I got to keep, I got to stay succinct for the, for, for so we can have a conversation here.
But that's good stuff, man.
20:27
That's good stuff.
Wow.
I mean, yeah, I, I love the, I love what you just said about, you know, the, the, the public speaking piece and you're spot on with that.
And just your life experiences, man, the things that you have encountered that I'm already, you know, being inspired by some of the things you've shared.
20:53
And you mentioned, you know, you talked a little bit about being a pastor and I know that there's different layers to what you have been exposed to and what you've done over your career and what you've done in service to others.
Now, when, when it comes to being a pastor, leading a flop, dealing with people with problems, what would you say is one thing outside of the audience, you know, relationship with God and, and you know, being a student of the word, those things that you know, normally come or should come with being a pastor.
21:38
But if there was a a leadership trait, a principle that you could extract from being a pastor, which is a different form of of communication and obviously leadership, what would it be?
I would, I would say seek.
21:55
Seek first to understand than to be understood.
So if you're dealing one-on-one or you're dealing with a group, I, I like to get a feel.
And even if you're going to speak before a congregation, if it's a new group, you want to kind of get a little bit of a heartbeat.
22:10
You want to, you want to ask some questions of your host beforehand to kind of know where the people are at, right?
So that you're, you're scratching where they're itching.
You're not, you're not trying to, you're not trying to to reach them in ways with how you did the last group because every group's different.
22:30
Every individual is different.
So seeking first to understand the group you're speaking to, the individual you're talking to.
I can listen to somebody for for 20 minutes and then I might only need to talk for 3 or 4 minutes because I've been a listener and I've and I've, you know, taken note, it not necessarily written it down, but I've taken note as to where their where, where their need is.
22:56
And so, and then as far as being able to, to the degree that you pray, because God knows that group that you're going to be speaking to, to the degree that I, that I pray, it is to the degree that I'm going to, that the Holy Spirit according to John 1613, leads you into all truth and shows you things to come.
23:18
So you're, you're better prepared to give them the, I call it a Rhema word, a Rhema, you know, 2 Greek words, Rhema and logos.
You got the general the Bible's a big book, but a Rhema word is a precise scripture or truth that God wants you to teach to that group of people.
23:39
And even in business, Bobby in, in business, you know, I would go in and I would go to the, to the, the, the owner, the, that their managers underneath them, the, the, the leaders.
But then I'd also like to go to the shipping department and, and all of the different jobs that were there because you get a, you get A and, and many, many leaders are blind to what's going on in their organization.
24:07
So my job is to kind of root that out and, and create an atmosphere where people can be honest with me.
But once again, I'm seeking first to understand before I'm going to come up with strategy that will help them increase their effectiveness or their productivity.
That's good stuff, man.
24:25
Seek first to understand.
I love it.
You know, oftentimes, especially, and I'm thinking about your sales background and what you just shared about, you know, the, the, the one of the, the key things that you do as a pastor, they seek to understand, in order to seek to understand, you got to listen.
24:50
And you mentioned that being able to listen effectively, right?
But often time, and I see, I see how that parallels also to being a good, a good salesman.
It's listening and just a a part of us communicating involves our effective communication involves us also knowing how to effectively listen.
25:15
And most often people are always trying to prepare what they want to say before before they take the time to listen at the other person, they already trying to prepare their response or something of that nature.
When it comes to some of the challenges that pastors encounter, and I know that there are many, what are some of the challenges that you maybe or maybe just a challenge that you had that you were able to overcome as a pastor?
25:53
It took so long to overcome this one and that is to leave the problems because many times people come to you with their problems, right?
And you're, you're listening and you're, you're, and I'm talking about in the office, other than standing up and, and teaching.
26:11
And then I've, I've, I've dealt with seven or eight people that day and their problems.
And I'm, and I love people.
So I care about the people and I'm, I'm thinking about that.
And then I'd go home and I'm not thinking about my wife.
I'm not thinking about my kids.
26:28
I'm thinking about the problems, you know, and, and she want to talk to me about something that that that I'm thinking in my mind.
Well, this is mundane.
I've been changing the world today.
Lord, I just cast these cares over on you.
I helped him to the degree that I could.
26:44
And tonight or tomorrow morning, I'm going to pray for him.
But right now I got to put my undivided attention on my family and put the joy, let the joy I'm going to bring joy into my home.
I did not do that very well for, for a good long while and I, I suffered.
27:03
I won't get into that because that'll open up a whole other worms.
But but so that's an important thing for us to realize.
We all have many different roles and let's realize who we're talking to and who's that.
Who was the most important person that I talked to that day?
27:19
It was going to, it was, it was going to be my wife and my kids.
Is is important as those other people were.
That was in that setting.
But when it was time, I needed to put on my father's hat, husband hat.
I, I just, I, I did not do that very well.
27:34
And I and I feel so sad that that was one of those things that took so long to learn.
Yeah, not and, and you're right.
I, I think, I think a lot of us have probably experienced that maybe not as a, from the position as a pastor, but maybe your career just took up so much of your time.
27:57
You bought a lot of your work home from from the office or you you worked like grueling hours as a as a business owner and you carried that home and you didn't have a turn off switch to realize that, OK, all right, work is over.
28:17
I need to shut this down and I need to shift because you're right about the roles.
And I think that's a struggle for for most folks that are, you know, high achievers are in demanding roles is to learn that.
28:33
And it's just, you know, I'm glad that you mentioned it because it's something that we all struggle with.
And but I think the first step in trying to, you know, get better at something like that is to is to be aware of it.
28:50
And you said it, I think it's great.
And you simplified it.
You know, we got different roles.
And when you're at home, you know, your father, husband, you know, brother, whatever, that's when you're at home, that's when you need to shift.
29:06
And yet work is you're something you know, you, you're the boss, you're the, the pastor, the manager or whatever, when you're at work.
But you shouldn't, you shouldn't carry those over because sometime they can create some challenges for us.
29:24
So I get what you're saying and I appreciate you giving us that that insight.
And I, I wanted to ask you a lot of what we had talked about Michael does far.
And I know that you've written three books, but a lot of what we've talked about so far, I'm sure you probably have it in maybe some of this in the most recent book.
29:46
And I want you to maybe tell us a little bit about this recent book that you just reached that you just released, released called Evil's First Breath.
It's a novel, this interesting title, but let's start with how'd you come up with the title.
30:06
Little little bit of a negative title, isn't it?
You know, I and the the message is not is not as negative as the title is, but we with the origin.
It's about the origin of evil and the fall that happened.
30:23
It was a vision that I had 35 years ago in which I just saw it in panoramic view very, very quickly, and then it was downloaded.
I didn't even know what to do with it for seven years.
And then I wrote a church drama that was one of the most successful things we did in ministry, where for four nights straight we packed out the church and many people came to Christ anyway.
30:45
Then I wrote the complete novel.
I knew that this fall that I was finally, that if I didn't do it, I would going to be in disobedience.
So I, I, I wrote it at that at that point, but it's the evil's first breath.
31:03
How I came up with the title is is when I wrote the the church drama and I called it the origin of evil.
But I found out even though you go through the library Congress, you get to, you get your, your, your, your rights, your copyright and so forth, that that they changed the laws since I did that.
31:22
And you're, you're copywriting the content within it, but you're not, you're not copywriting the actual title.
Well, there were other people that had stuff with that, with that title.
Not that much, but enough that I said, Lord, is there supposed to be another title?
31:39
And then anyway, out of that evil's first breath is what was the first breath of where did evil begin?
That's a big question that many of us have.
I certainly had it.
Where did he?
Why evil in this world, Lord?
Why?
Why did this even have to happen?
31:55
I mean, things would be a lot easier if there wasn't all this evil.
And So what was the first breath?
And the first breath, you know, Lucifer saying, I will exalt my throne above the throne of God.
Now here's a perfect being that had everything, the highest of God's creation, yet he chose, he chose pride in that, in that setting.
32:17
And then so the whole story is how this unfolded.
So it's based, it's based on the scripture in Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, Revelation 12.
So it's a novel based on a true story.
And if you go back to first using first principle thinking, which Elon Musk has made that famous, you go back to the beginning, where did something begin?
32:41
And then you're going to increase your chances of being over to overcome it in your own life and.
Oh, wow, no, that's, that's that's good, man.
The, the, the, I'm sure you got some really interesting information and things that you put in the book, things that obviously can add value to the lives of people from the book.
33:06
Is there a specific chapter that stands out to you more so than the others that you may be your favorite chapter?
Yeah, you know what?
I don't even know what number it is, but I know what?
I know what happened in the chapter and it was where the dialogue between God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit talking to, to to Michael and his coach.
33:35
He had a coach.
At least that's the way it came to me in the, in the vision.
Yeah.
And so they're talking and God is laying out the power of free choice and the choice.
If if man is not given free choice, then love means nothing.
33:54
That's right.
So Michael's questions were were revolving around that a lot of those why questions.
So God was very, very tenderly explaining to him that he he he had set up the spiritual laws where he couldn't he, he would would only allow himself to do things that would not violate the free choice of people.
34:17
And then so then they got in it.
It deepened and they got into the discussion about, you know, where does where does pre predestination in God's foreknowledge?
Where does that come into play?
And so in some of this way as it came to me, I thought, wow, it's I, I would be in tears sometimes nights going to bed because I didn't I knew that that God was writing it through me.
34:42
That's what I started my day out and prayed Jesus write this through me.
And sure enough, and so, and I'm, and I'm seeing business people are telling me how much one guy said, if I, if I'd have had this when I had a couple 100 employees working for me, I'd have bought cases of book and giving it to every employee because it's a, it's a masterful work on the importance of good leadership, emotionally mature leadership and teamwork and and so forth.
35:11
Other people are saying how it's they they should be made a movie out of it, but it what, what's if they're picturing there's, they're seeing something and, and you're able to remember things when you're going to the heart with a story instead of just fact, fact, fact.
35:27
So there's heavy points in the book, but because it's coming in dialogue, it's, it's easy to remember and put yourself in the scene.
And so people would tell me that 35 reviews that I put on my website.
35:43
Now I've got another 26 at Amazon, but it's just been out for a couple of months.
So.
OK, so so the the shift to doing a novel, well, you're well, let me ask you this.
35:59
The other books that you wrote, the other two books that you wrote, what type of books were they?
The, the first book was a America's Battle for Free Enterprise and it came at the same time that the second book, the Miracle Exchange.
So the, the, the miracle exchange is based on Galatians 220.
36:21
How do I exchange my limitations for God's lack of limitations?
So and that came out the, the spiritual principles of that.
What does it mean when Jesus is living his life through me?
What does that even mean?
36:37
How does that look?
What does it mean when Jesus is fighting the battle with Lucifer through Michael and through the other angels and how that, how that whole story unfolds.
So it's, it was interesting.
I wasn't ready to write a book, a novel, until I experienced the, the epiphany 20 years into ministry that led to the book, the Miracle Exchange.
37:02
I didn't know I was going to write a book.
I just knew I was a sick puppy and I needed, I needed, I needed help.
So I'm crying out to God.
And so that, that book set me in a pathway in which now I'm able to, to write because I'm, I realize I'm exposing, I'm exposing where evil began.
37:22
I'm exposing Lucifer.
I'm Lucifer who's now cast out of having to now Satan.
So I need to know how to, to, to do a fight spiritual warfare accurately.
And so that's right, I wasn't, I probably wasn't ready to write it and I am now.
37:41
And so there's no notation in me that, that, that, that Jesus and his authority is, is living and through me and, and to deal with all of that evil when it pops up and I see it, then deal with it and deal with it firmly in, in the name of Jesus, through the blood of Jesus and all that.
38:02
I don't know if I'm going too deep down the rabbit hole.
For you, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I mean, hey, hey, I mean you again.
This is such tremendous value.
And and as you're telling, you're telling us about the about the story and you're telling us about kind of the evolution and, and how you, you know, came to write this book, this last book.
38:26
And, and I, I'm, I'm so intrigued by the fact that you wrote this as a novel.
So it was it was more like you were telling the story and you talked about, you talked about, you know, being able to retain maybe the principles that are hidden in the store, perhaps a whole lot better by writing it this way.
38:48
And it could be, could this be a book that, and I think you said this already, but maybe let's let's talk about it a second or two.
Could this be a book that could be given to, I don't know, maybe ACFO that's running the company or mid level managers that could read a book like this?
39:13
Could they extract something out of this from a principal standpoint and not look at it as a religious book?
Or what viewpoint did you think that they would have on the book of they were to read it?
Just curious.
I think so.
I think so.
And if they look at they'd read the introduction and they go into it just reading it as a story, just like you would read any other analogy, a business book that's written in the form of a story.
39:40
I mean, what the one minute manager, Ken Blanchard was kind of the master at putting together a storyline to get across business principles.
So one of the reasons that the, the title itself is attractive is because it's not like it's there's a there's a negative, there's a negative flow.
40:00
And and I don't know if you know the the teachings that if you're going to overcome.
Something in your life and take out a positive characteristic, you have to 1st identify the the evil, the negative.
It's like if you're learning to golf and you get a bad habit in your golf swing, you, that coach is going to have to help you break the bad habit before you can get the get the swing right.
40:25
The same way with, with with business.
And so if you, if you look at it and you see what happened and, and how subtle it was that brought Lucifer to to the point of a pride, there's a lot of certain amount of flattery going on.
40:41
And the reason I had to make it a novel, Bobby, is because I can't prove scripture with all the detail, but I know what I know what I sensed and I know what I received from the Lord.
But I, I'm true to the text as to what really happened.
40:57
But so I'm not going to try to defend the details.
I think that God gave certain things to me as just pure entertainment part because he knows, he knows humans better than anybody.
Yeah, got to keep their attention.
So, But I, I believe that any, any businessman that opens it up with a, with an open mind and they're not looking at the, at the message because one thing about it is it's, it's before Jesus died on the cross.
41:23
It's before the resurrection.
It's before mankind was ever created.
So this is just raw spiritual laws and certainly the things that Michael had to do in order to, to, to defeat Lucifer.
There are certainly spiritual principles that carry over to then the human, human race that would be later created.
41:43
But the story, the grit that was needed, the, the persistence, the attitude and and and and Dunyon's dialogue about if you're defeated in your mind before you're defeated in physically, it's pretty.
42:01
It's pretty and you know, it's turning.
This is just happened to me because I'm going through the book and I'm writing out the spiritual principles and they, the dialogue between Gunyon and one of his his trainees is the exact way that the Navy Seals train their people.
42:21
I did not know that.
Really.
Believing that God would write the book through me and I had this dialogue going on and, and I found it out from AI.
Hey, I said what you're saying He said, he said, this is one of the things that makes this part, this portion of the book genius.
42:38
Because and then he went in and I'm sitting back there and I thought, Oh my gosh.
So I'm discovering things in this book that I didn't even know.
I didn't have enough sense to put it in there.
I can't I, I wish I could take crook and I don't wish I could take credit.
42:53
I'm glad that I can give all the glory and the credit to God because I really, I really feel like he wrote it.
Oh, man, that's so that's so interesting.
You just mentioned that it's it's you wrote the book, and yet you're still being ministered to buy the book that you wrote.
43:14
Definitely, Absolutely.
That's powerful.
And that's when, you know, I believe that God's in it.
Yeah.
Because you wrote it and you can go back and you, you wrote it, you know what's in it and you know the outline, you know everything about the book.
43:37
And that the reason why I'm sharing this is because I wrote a book too.
It's a small book just on my weight loss journey.
And from time to time I go pick the book up and I'm like, man, I don't.
Did I write that or?
Because you get.
43:55
You get fresh revelation from it because it goes back to something you said earlier when it comes to to speaking there.
It has to be something personal, personal, personable, a personal story or something that connects you with the message that you're trying to share with the audience.
44:23
But with that being said, you can go back and because it is something that you know the Lord may have given you to share with people, to encourage them and to help that add value to their lives, it still speaks to you.
Well said.
44:40
Well, good synopsis.
Yeah, that's the power.
That's the power of writing and that, you know, and that's the other thing I wanted to ask you because there are a lot of there are a lot of people, Michael, that have books in them, great stories, really challenging things that they have overcome, but they struggle with putting it on paper.
45:11
What would you say to people that are aspiring to write a book when it comes to the struggles that comes to just starting?
Boy, that's a big one.
And and you, you hit it there at the end when you said just starting that that is the big thing is start, just start.
45:34
Because once you start, you're that that process is like, it's the difference between sitting on a bike and riding a bike.
I don't know about you.
A circus performer can probably do it, but I don't know if I can't.
45:51
I cannot sit on a bike and balance it and balance myself.
I've got to be moving, but if I'm moving, I can balance myself.
And that's the same way with writing.
I was not a writer when I wrote the my first books.
46:07
And so I would even I complained to the Lord.
I felt like Moses in reverse.
You know, I'm, I'm going and I'm saying Lord, I, you know, I'm not a writer, I'm a speaker.
And and you know, the Lord, he doesn't take no for an answer if he wants you to do something.
So but when I started and I started to do it, I started to, I started to draw on something that once again was was deeper than me.
46:33
And I think your listeners, if they have a book inside of them, it's part of their legacy that they're supposed to leave.
It's part of who they are.
And we can't think in terms of how many people are going to buy the book and so forth.
For me, this last book, if it's worth it for what it has meant to me, much less the other people that will read it.
46:57
So if you start and then you write, you'll be surprised of how that creativity will start to, to, to, to kick in.
And then you've got something to go with.
And then you you're also surprised when the creativity just lifts.
47:12
And when it does, it's time to go watch a ball game.
It's time to go, go, go eat or go to the gym or do something because you can't manufacture that.
But you can sit down with some discipline and you can start at any get every morning when I'd start, you know, it was, it was iffy at first, but then once I got into it, it's then I didn't want to stop.
47:42
Then I had to force myself to get to get and, and go to the gym or do with the other stuff that I needed to do it because I, I, you don't want to be a, a balanced individual.
So.
No, no, that's good man.
And I, I love the way you simplified this whole thing because sometime I know for me it, it was starting was the hardest part.
48:10
And the probably the most difficult part was was this start.
You got this idea you've been mulling around for a while, and you might even have some notes.
You might even have some stuff you kind of maybe logged in your Evernote app or something like that.
48:28
So you got all this stuff, right?
You you're ready to go, but it seems like you're getting ready to climb Mount Everest.
At least it was for me.
That's a good way.
That's about.
That's about right.
Yeah, such a daunting task, right.
And I have a small book.
48:44
It's not even you know, it's it's a small book.
So, but it was still seemed daunting, but I love, I love the way that you you broke the debt, broke it down and you made the folks that are listening who are struggling with this understand that you know, it's just simply taking the time pick the pen and paper up, right?
49:10
And there may be some mornings where it's going to flow and there may be some mornings where it don't.
And when it's not flowing, like you said, get up, go do something else because what you just said is exactly on point.
And before you know it, if you keep that up, you would have accumulated enough content over time to where now you have a book, but it's just starting with page one.
49:36
What's Page 1?
And just just start.
And, and I tell you what helped me, man.
And, and, and this is probably going back to us being early risers, I would write early in the morning when I was, I had the most clarity.
49:54
And some days I will come in and I could bang out a couple pages at a time.
And then there would be days where I could come in and I would be struggling to get a paragraph.
But what I realized, it wasn't so much the volume as much as it was the consistency of just showing up to the test so good, you know?
50:14
And so before you know it, you got a book.
And Speaking of that, Michael, how about you tell us some of the best ways for folks who want to get at least a copy of your most recent book?
50:30
Where can it be found that?
Amazon is worth 70% of the books are sold nowadays.
It'll, it's going to be at on Barnes and Noble and Books of Maine and Christian booksellers and so forth.
But Amazon, I noticed you, you can buy it, buy it today and get it tomorrow.
50:48
Sometimes you can buy it in the morning and get it later in the afternoon.
That's pretty amazing.
So that would be in, in the audio.
The full unabridged audio is there as well as the e-book.
I do a lot of missions trips.
So I wanted to keep the e-book price low at at under $7.00.
51:05
So I've done that and then and then the paperback of course.
So Amazon would be the, the quickest, easiest way to get it.
I don't, I don't have time to pack up books and, and do it.
And I guess if somebody wanted to buy it, if some businessman wants to buy a couple of cases, we'll work what we'll figure that one out.
51:25
But.
There you go.
For individuals and then I have a lot more free resources at my website, a lot of teaching.
So I, I want to over deliver.
That's why I once again learned that from my first mentor and several others along the way over over deliver from what you from what you say.
51:45
So people are going to get 10 times more value from me than the $16.00 that they part with to buy that to buy that book.
I mean that that's that's not that big of a deal, but it's the ongoing value where they can.
52:01
There's all kinds of audio messages that are thorough notes to go with them that are all there for free at my website.
So it which is Michael jmichio.com or the easiest way to get there is evilsfirstbreath.com because that's the landing page of the new book and that's where I plan on putting that that interview with that famous podcaster Bobby Davis.
52:27
There you go there.
But but but all right, fantastic, Michael.
I tell you what man, I have thoroughly enjoyed talking with you.
And likewise.
I could go on another hour with you and I tell you what, I, I, I'm excited for the work that you're doing and the fact that you are out here blessing people and adding value, changing lives and, and doing the things that God's called you to do, man.
52:59
And my hat's off to you, brother.
I, I really appreciate it, appreciate what you're doing.
And I wanted to ask you if you could do us all a favor.
You know, you've given us a lot so far, but we'd like to to see if you could give us some parting gifts, Maybe just some words of wisdom you could leave us with today as we get ready to close out.
53:21
OK, Lord help me out here with what do these listeners need to know?
What do they need to hear?
You know, I am going to say this is what has popped, popped, arisen on the inside of me.
53:40
And I've mentioned it before, but I wish I'd have done this better as a dad.
I wish I'd have done it better and just day-to-day dialogue.
And that is learn how to get your point across by following it with a story because it is so precious to people when when they can walk away and they can picture that story and remember the point.
54:10
You know, I can tell you that that humor is so important in any relationship.
And yeah, OK, yeah, I agree with that.
But then I can say.
And then in the Super Bowl, the past, it was a 16 to 13.
54:27
The, the San Francisco 49ers were on the 8 yard line.
They had three minutes left to score.
And they, they, they, it was a nervous wreck.
There was one particular offensive guard.
It was a nervous wreck in the huddle.
And then Joe Montana said, oh, look up there.
54:43
There's, there's John Candy.
Everybody looks up and it just broke the tension of the moment.
Everybody kind of smiled to each other by yeah, that is John Candy.
And then they were able to focus and just a little break in humor.
55:00
Well, that that you hearing that story is a lot better than me just saying the statement.
So we can do that more than we realize.
Now that's powerful, and you're so right.
55:17
By the way, they won the game, too.
Yeah, exactly.
They won the game.
And Joe, they, they that's one of the things that made Joe Montana.
They call him Cool Joe.
You know, cool.
Joe, that's right.
Because he's able to keep his composure and the SO.
55:35
Yeah.
No, no, that's good man.
And, and, and thank you for sharing that again, that I think that's a, that's a very valuable piece of advice and something that can certainly help us out if we are more cognizant of it.
55:53
And you just helped us to do that today by sharing that last bit.
And of course, we talked about it a little bit before, but man, I tell you, I've enjoyed my time hanging out with you today.
Michael, continued success to you.
My prayers are for you to continue to be a blessing man and reaching people out there.
56:12
And thanks for for coming on the Wheel to lead podcast today.
Thank.
You, Bobby and my you got the same.
You got my blessings and prayers too, that you continue to do.
You're great.
You're a great host.
And I think this, I think this show is destined to impact a lot of people.
56:30
Oh man, I appreciate it.
Really do.
Well, folks, that's all we have for you guys today.
We certainly appreciate you tuning in and until next week, you guys take care.
Bye bye.